What is friendship?
What does it mean to be a friend?
How do you define friendship? A friend recently shared his idea about friendship and how it seemed to him (being an outsider in the US); I thought it was brilliant. He basically, well…let me just copy and paste:
“People in everyone’s life are like train passengers. you sit in your place during your journey while people come in and out the train while they do their journey. Someone sits close to you for a while then they leave, some sit and talk to you, some join your very same journey, and some of them just stare at you.”
I agree with this.
My train’s passenger list changes. Sometimes life controls it and other times I control it.
I won’t go into it here, but I have removed some from my train myself. I find that there are people on my train that were not invited and sometimes I am one of those who stares blankly at those who wish to sit in my train. I prefer the deep conversations and prefer those who prefer to express thoughts, ideas, and feelings. Sometimes there are disagreements, but rarely is that enough for an expulsion from my train. Disagreements are healthy and should be be viewed as a learning experience as well as an opportunity to learn a little something about my fellow passenger as well as myself.
I try to control those that get on my train. Sometimes I can’t. People just get on. Some get off by their own accord, the rest are removed.
What is a friend to me?
A friend to me is someone that will listen as well as share. Friendship, true friendship, is about sharing. Sometimes religion binds people together, other times its an idea or a cause. Other times it is hard to pinpoint the commonality that is shared.
I miss traveling. I can honestly say that I have made friends on my journeys. I have made friends on actual trains and buses.
There is a friend, whom I keep in touch with, that I met on a bus ride from Standsted Airport to Victoria Station. We were on the bus for almost an hour without speaking. Then suddenly, with 15 minutes left on the ride, we started talking…talking about our trips and where we’d been, etc… Maybe 15 minutes? We parted just outside of the train station. We exchanged email addresses and the rest is history. We have stayed in touch all of these years later from a causal meeting on a bus. We share our travel stories and our personal stories. Although we have not seen each other since, we chat on line and share on line… BUT does this make us friends?
I really and honestly don’t have a definition for friendship. I am hoping those who read this blog will share their concept of friendship with me.
I am curious what friendship means to you? This of course gives you the Last Word…
I have a pretty broad definition of friendship.
All things have a relationship and I view friendship as being one that is mutually perceived as positive. Of course, there are varying degrees of friendship.
I think each friendship serves a purpose, regardless of the strength of the bond. Though we may lose weakly connected friends on our journey, the value of all relationships remains a constant.
The attraction and separation of bonds are the function of Life- all the way from atoms to personal relationships. I guess the goal is to not cut a bond prematurely before the purpose can be fulfilled.
I don’t really know how this all plays out in our transition from a small clan structure to a complexly populated society. I’m still trying to work out what we are as a final product.
bradley
July 11, 2009 at 1:49 pm
I agree with your concept of mutualism. I also think that as we move from the small clan mentality into a larger less clanish society we should also gain in knowledge and understanding of those around us. If we would only accept that as the world gets smaller (with technology as its driving force) that in essence we are all the same; then society will be all the better for it. If we can find that common ground even as society races towards its inevitable next phase (whatever it may be) we would stand to be a better society. I am not sure we can shake that clansman like quality.
I try not to weed the garden prematurely. Sometimes, if it is obviously a weed/parasite, it must be ripped from exsistence. Sometimes you are not sure. Is it a weed? Is it a tomato plant? Those I keep around until I am able to discern the intention.
As far as purpose? That’s a bit touchy.
Mr. Atheist
July 11, 2009 at 7:22 pm
I think I understand your reluctance in accepting purpose. It doesn’t have to automatically imply deity driven purpose, though.
Do you not think we ascribe purpose to relationships? We constantly allow needs to be met by relationships.
The way we perceive a relationship is determined by the perspective of our individual consciousness. A cow is a cow, until it becomes our food… with a purpose to feed us.
Do you believe there is purpose?
bradley
July 11, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Like I said…touchy.
Webster defines purpose as something set up as an object or end to be attained. Sounds like the Rick Warren country to me.
I hated how “The Sopranos” ended. Black screen. No music. Just…nothing. No wrap up. Nothing.
In looking back it was the perfect metaphor for life. It just is. It just continues. It just ends. No purpose. Purpose, to me, implies some sort of divine handiwork at play. Some people get on the train and some get off the train. Some you speak to and other just make you uncomfortable because they just stare. Eventually, we die. The train keeps going. It has always been running and will continue to run long after we die.
Purpose implies a goal. A drive to achieve something. What is the goal? What is there to achieve? To me, find love and being loved is the goal. I don’t have any evidence that I will be able to take these feelings with me when I die, so I am chosing to enjoy them now. Love is powerful. Love is also a mystery. Maybe it’s not even Love. Maybe love is nothing more than neurotransmitters firing off in sync/out of sync. Maybe it is chemical. Maybe it is actually a weakness on our part that should have been mutated out of us by now, but because it is “desired” by society, those that love have perpetuated this through their progeny. Maybe 1,000 years from now there won’t be love. It’s funny to think of Love being looked at romantically in some distant future like we do when a new archealogical discovery is presented to the world. I know I hear John William’s theme to Raiders when I hear/read about a new discovery somewhere…
I should probably stop ready Orwell, right?
Mr. Atheist
July 11, 2009 at 11:28 pm
ello mr_a.
I don’t guess I really have a problem with Rick Warren as a person. His book kind of presents a lot of “truth” about things we clearly know little about, though. Inspiring folks to live with a purpose is one thing, but giving the precise “reason for our existence” is just systematic speculation at best.
You described life very well. I think the bulk of creation probably exists in a state of purposelessness. Animals may understand cause and effect, like lionesses hunting in packs to improve success… but I doubt they sit around and think about the more abstract “purpose” of their actions. Who knows?.. the only thing I know about lionesses is they hunt in packs.
The important point, though, is WE DO understand purpose. We understand it so well that we create tools with purpose non-stop. We know purpose. If we take ownership of this Truth we can take command of our consciousness.
The world may exist as a process of organisms adapting to unfilled niches in the path of less competition, without purpose… but… with the arrival of Man, came purpose. We can now choose our purpose.
And… ever since we realized this, we’ve been searching for that image to strive for in our purpose.
As for your forecast for love… grim indeed.
What a sad day when love remains only as the mythology for the experience perceived by the chemical reaction resulting from a gland responding to stimulant. Puppy love and romance, just seems so much more “human soul”-esque.
bradley
July 12, 2009 at 9:09 pm
I didn’t think you would have an issue with RW. It has just begun to be this “industry” to mentor the masses. I guess all self-help books from dietary insrtuctions to purpose fit this bill.
I think we LOOK for purpose where there isn’t any. Just like someone assigning meaning to something (insert Virgin Mary on the side of toast referrence here) that has no meaning.
You point out and make my argument easier for me. Purpose was not given any consideration until the advent of man. Man shows up, shows a little intelligence and BOOM! the need for purpose is born. Purpose seems contrived and to a certain extent divisive.
Mr. Atheist
July 12, 2009 at 10:17 pm
You’re right. We look for purpose. Like when we discovered penicillin… we looked for applications to benefit.
I’m not sitting here telling you there’s some big grand meaning to life. I think there is, but I understand your frustration with that thought. What I AM saying is: Why on Earth would we NOT apply a meaning to life if we understand the concept so well?
But… like you said… it can certainly be divisive. If you feel strongly about this, you should definitely spread the word(as you’re doing), but don’t cripple yourself by neglecting this aspect of your humanity.
If you teach that there is no purpose to life, then there clearly is none. We remain merely semi-well formed cells in competition with every atom in existence.
But, if we have Purpose….
bradley
July 13, 2009 at 6:35 am
Like I said, purpose is to love and be loved. Purpose is to make this little blue marble survive us. Our legacy should be to make this place habitable and also a place where there is love. As I have stated before knowledge is just as important. With the exposure of new cultures and peoples we should seek the common ground. Religion tends to break that apart.
I was thinking about this last night. Say you have a friend. You guys get along just fine. You hang out, you enjoy each others company… Inevitably the conversation turns to religion or to politics. These two topics will usually divide people. Reminds me of that old saying…”Don’t talk about religion or politics.” I see that as a warning. I am not saying we should not engage in talk of these two subjects. Politics will be around for ever, but (not usually) there is compromise. This is not the case with Religion. With religion, although there might exist tolerance, in the back of each individual party’s mind there is that nagging feeling that “MINE” is the “TRUE RELIGION” that at some point will rear its ugly head… It is worse when someone’s political leanings are based on church teachings. That only gets us into further issues. Issues that are not usually resolved with a mere conversation. At least not on a global scale. Within a small group (2 people) there are always exceptions to these rules. But when one person is elected or has authority and speaks for a group; the challenge becomes evident and illustrates my point.
I think of this ongoing debate as futile. Atheist vs. deists or theists. I think that individuals might be able to get along, sure, but not when they “speak” for a larger group. I watch debates on Youtube or if someone has a DVD. I am not saying that the debators would probably be willing to sit down to a beer and really discuss the issue and arrive at a conclusion and convert the other. That won’t happen. I am not here to “convert” people to atheism. That is not my point. I think, if that is going to happen, it will. (why do we always go back to this!
)
I have to add though…
If there is a source of purpose that is divine…why isn’t EVERYONE on the same page? Why is one god’s purpose better than the next god’s purpose…?
Mr. Atheist
July 13, 2009 at 10:50 am
I agree, the big debates are a bit futile but entertaining. On one hand you have Team God being forced into a position of having to prove God’s existence in a realm of scientific method and reason. However, Club Atheism doesn’t get to wield the end-all, good-for-any-question statement, “that takes Faith”.(sarcastic but true)
Sorry if I put you on the spot about trying to influence people into losing faith. I only mentioned you “spreading the word” but didn’t clarify. I’m actually all for you spreading discontent with Big Religion… or Big Business and Big Government, for that matter. There’s something very bad that comes with too much power, because as we discussed in another conversation… those in power only possess a finite understanding, therefore only as righteous as an ancient slave master. IMHO
I’m not really trying to convert you to Christianity or discredit your atheism. I just hate to see you throw the baby out with the bath water. The more I get to know your position, the more I realize that you seem to be dismissing basic truths because they carry the stench of a god you don’t want to believe in.
Discussions of the spirit, like Love for example, are just as true as the science behind them. I loved your description of the chemical reactions that we call love, because it so clearly explains the relationship of “spirit” and “flesh”. (maybe not by traditional church standards, but I’m not traditional) We might someday say that love doesn’t really exist (like God)… but that doesn’t make the chemical reaction disappear. We just might say, “Gah… that chemical reaction love stuff was sooooooo 1000 years ago”.
To answer your question, though. Everyone isn’t on the same page because people are in different stages of social development and subjected to different environmental impacts that shape their theology.
bradley
July 13, 2009 at 8:58 pm
If the baby is that small…it may get thrown out with the bath water.
Put me on the spot? No worries.
Which basic “truths” am I dismissing? That is a slightly loaded…truth.
Ah back to my favorite…
“To answer your question, though. Everyone isn’t on the same page because people are in different stages of social development and subjected to different environmental impacts that shape their theology.”
Ah… Aren’t we created in their image? What should social development matter when we are are creations of one true god? Do you have to hear about WHO created you to have someone to blame for your misfortune or to praise it for your relative success? If it about design, and there is only 1 designer, why isn’t there a “trigger” inside of everyone that would be able to recognize the “voice”, if you will, of the true creator?
Not trying tp pick a fight…just looking for clarification. As usual….
Mr. Atheist
July 13, 2009 at 10:06 pm
I don’t know why, but for some reason that movie line “the dingo stole my baby” went through my head.
Now for some clarity and a few questions for you. Sorry about being unclear… hard to cover a lot of ground as quickly as possible.
That we have forgiveness. That we have purpose. That we need repentance. And… You seem to indirectly be missing that we have freedom, though we haven’t actually discussed our absolute freedom yet.
What truths can you teach me about?
I’m torn here… still trying to work out if we are still being created, presently… or… we’re fully created and merely being raised up and discipled, like children by their parents. The latter seems more in line with scripture, but the former makes a little more sense when you step back and see creation.
Do you think our understanding, awareness, and consciousness gives us a special bond with the knowledge we’ve gained, like maybe it’s a part of us? Kind of like it’s the defining characteristic of man?
It doesn’t matter. Well, it does to man because we are bound by time. Our perspective (finite, as we’ve discussed now 3 times or so) causes judgment and ultimately condemnation. However, for God… we’re exactly where we’re suppose to be.
What does social development mean for the harmony of mankind when thinking about competition or Social Darwinism?
It’s a reminder that ultimately we are not in control of creation. You can work your butt off to the best of your ability, but sometimes there’s just a gust of wind that blows a whole bunch of leaves on your freshly raked lawn. Man, with gods like these who needs enemies, ya?
How do YOU remind yourself to stay cool under circumstances beyond your control?
There is. If the voice that is calling us all to it were a magnet, everything in creation would be a metal (right down to the magic proteins). We are all being pulled toward it, though our choices we make, or impose on others, create a friction that hinders our call. The friction tires us out and sometimes we just find a group of metals camped out together along the way and we decide to dig in with them because they’re closer, easily reached, and seem more tangible. That One True Magnet is still pulling on us, though.
What makes life grow?
bradley
July 14, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Fine. But the train metaphor wasn’t considering KILLING PASSENGERS nor force them down from the train. We cannot be the controller of the train…nor the ticket man. Get my point?
Novat
July 14, 2009 at 11:38 pm
Uh oh. I feel a “free will” speech coming on. I am willing to hear about “free will”. I will listen to your take on that.
What do I need forgiveness for exactly? Because I was born? Is my purpose to behave while in the sandbox and not throw sand at the other kids so that I will go to heaven and spend eternity with the guy who made me? (Yes, I took those on in reverse order!) Who made me this way? The same guy who made me with the ability to question and doubt and then rebukes and condemns for me it? Hmm.
What truths can I teach you about?
With all neurotransmissions aside… Love. Love is the truth. Love tests you. Love teaches you. Love hurts you. Love builds you. Love sometimes even tears you down. Love gives you strength and love makes you weak. Love lifts and depresses. I better stop. Cue the “All you need is love” song.
I will say that we stand out from the rest of the animals on this land. I think we cannot fly so there, in that realm, we must submit. Same with the sea. Ultimately, without technology and just a few scraps of bones and hides from the animals we were lucky to kill…we have managed to claim dominance over the land. I think we benefit from the work and ideas and productivity of others. I think in this regard, yes, it is part of us. We benefit. It is silly to think of it otherwise. The defining characteristic of man, on the other hand, I am not sure that is something we can truly pin point. I mean, we have come a long way from cave drawings (heard of Pixar?).
….to be continued.
Mr. Atheist
July 14, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Bradley, why do you think YOUR god and your position is the right one? What about polytheistic religions? Where the “believers” assign A Specific GOD to each Specific Task?
In Christianity….isnt worshipping saints a form of polytheism as well? What if the truth is written into the Q’ran insted of the Bible? What about the Torah? What about the Maoists’ Red Book? How can christians be so sure that all the answers are written into one book and that that is The word of god? (btw I am writing the word god in lower case intentionally).
Are you Protestant, Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist…? Why so many variations of the same religion? Have you ever asked yourself WHY are there so many different beliefs and variations if you are all one and the same? I mean, it’s the same religion is it not? The only answer I can come up with is simply: MONEY.
I have followed many different religions and point of views within my own family: my grandma was Muslim, her husband Greek Ortodox, my mother’s side Christian Catholic and Lutheran (confusing, right?). I’ve been married with a Jew. I’ve read all about every single one of those religions. This long term exposure to all those different points of view revealed me the true light: MONEY and POWER.
I dunno where are you from man, I just ask that you just look around. Do you see any different people then you? Beside (probably) mexican immigrants and from few other place, working their asses off illegaly and teaming up by themself because certain neighborhoods don’t let them be part of the community because they are “different”…do you hang out with people with different ideas?
My point was to bring you back to what I was trying to explain about my perception of USA community and society: You have the freedom of thinking LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE around you.
Have you ever visited (for example) The Vatican?
I wonder how many different friendships you have with different people who have different directions and perspective than your own? I would suggest that if you are not doing it already.
Novat
July 15, 2009 at 12:00 am
I what you are saying. But that seems passive. Even if it is only a metaphor…I prefer to choose who I keep on my train. Welcome aboard!
Mr. Atheist
July 15, 2009 at 12:02 am
No no no….I think you should hop on another train instead. You cannot choose the passengers but you can choose your life/train.
Novat
July 15, 2009 at 12:47 am
What the fuck is that on my AVATAR?
Novat
July 15, 2009 at 12:47 am
The is the child of the flying spghetti monster and the teapot.
Mr. Atheist
July 15, 2009 at 7:27 am
Mr.Atheist…you quoted me as “You have the freedom of thinking LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE around you”. That is not what I meant.
I mean..your only freedom is to think like the rest of US citizens. If you think different..then you are considered a weirdo.
So..the moral is..NO FREDOM OF THINKING DIFFERENTLY.
Anonymous
July 15, 2009 at 11:47 am
@ Mr_A:
No time for free will right now.
Too much stuff going on, as is.
Listen, I get it. You don’t believe in God. But, I’m not really talking about heaven, or hell, or miracles, or saying my god is as strong as a unicorn. I’m only really trying to help you understand mankind’s salvation.
You had the right idea with part of forgiveness being a coping mechanism, but your lack of awe at it’s significance leads me to believe you don’t fully understand it. Are we really going around in circles, or are you just being obstinate?
Based on everything you’ve said in our conversations indicates that you understand the destruction caused by our judging. The church could quite easily be worst than most, but we’re all human. If you want to live in a world where we won’t be judged, condemned, and placed in a hierarchy by our fellow man, then you need to start learning to forgive them. They deserve your forgiveness for everything they do wrong, for the same reason you have forgiveness for anything you need… which brings us to your question.
You said, “what do I need forgiveness for exactly?” Do you ever feel remorse for the way people get treated? I see your anger at the church for the way they treat people… I’m sure there are other people you see as a threat to peace. I know you disagree with atrocities like slavery and genocide, but how do you eliminate those without creating slavery and genocide of the spirit? If it’s wrong to put another people into slavery, then it’s wrong to put people into cultural slavery by forcing your morality measuring stick and social “enlightenment” upon them.
It’s easy to fall into a position of thinking everything we do is correct, but the slave owners didn’t really think poorly of their actions then either. If you understand that, then you can understand that we are all held accountable to each other for the actions we all do to one another. We have no sovereignty over our neighbors and their actions, though we CAN address our actions. We do this through repentance. If we truly feel sorry for the mistreatment of our neighbors, then we’ll make an effort to improve our relationships. If we can imagine being forgiven for that which we have repented, then we can do the same for others around us. We didn’t actually do anything to deserve our forgiveness BY them, just as our gift of forgiveness FOR them.
That is how mankind is saved. Anything less is unrighteous.
I think that’s a fantastic Truth. Man discovered that truth at least 3500 years ago, or at least wrote it down around then. That truth was then actually fulfilled about 2000 years ago. Now, we’re learning what that means and living in it every day of our lives.
—-1 John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is Love.—-
Everything else in the poems, songs, narratives, prophecies, prayers, catalogs, and letters of the Bible demonstrate your Love truth. Do you have any more truths to share?… maybe outside Jesus H. Christ’s Big Book of Truth?
@ Novat
I’ve made no such claim of anything you’re asking. If I start declaring things like catholic saint worship is not polytheism, please call me out. Otherwise I ask that you at least show me respect enough to read what I’ve taken the time to type. There’s plenty enough with that for you to find fault with.
I’m plenty open to accepting Truth from any point of the globe. Since I believe all Truth comes from God, I can find peace with Truth in any color. Do you know some truths you could teach me?
bradley
July 16, 2009 at 8:04 am
Obstinate? Me?
Sometimes, but not this time. My lack of awe leads you to believe I don’t fully understand divine forgiveness? Can I then assume that your “lack of awe” when the magician saws the woman in half is because you KNOW it is a trick?
I don’t agree with what you said PRIOR to the quote above, but that sounds a lot more like what you are doing.
You said…”If we truly feel sorry for the mistreatment of our neighbors, then we’ll make an effort to improve our relationships.” Not sure I follow you here. If my neighbor’s wife gets raped during a home invasion, where does forgiveness come in for me? I truly detest the person who did this to my neighbor’s wife. Am I supposed to forgive the perp that did this to her? Is her husband? Are we all to forgive him?
As far as your claim of Man having discovered “truth” 3500 years ago…that is questionable. Ask a Hindu if those dates are correct. Not pushing, just looking for a fair answer not one that is biased.
Mr. Atheist
July 16, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Why do you keep bringing God into this? I’m talking about forgiveness as a truth. If it is a truth, it should exist independently from my belief. Although that truth IS the Christ, you don’t believe any of the “hocus pocus” so why would I waste my time talking about the “divine”? I find THAT kind of talk far more fulfilling with other believers.
I’m sorry that the church has done this throughout time. I know it was easy to do when the RCC arrived at more primitive cultures. The church’s wealth, success, and giving nature made it easy to force those cultures into accepting doctrine. I’m not doing that, though. You are free to not accept this truth. Forgiveness has been made clear for you, there’s nothing more I can, or should, do. It’s your choice.
If you believe forgiveness is The Way for mankind to experience “God-like” Love, then yes… absolutely. The rapist needs your undeserved forgiveness… sounds impossible, huh? But, he needs your forgiveness because you get to enjoy forgiveness for letting all of the Africans starve to death while you enjoy some American riches.
If you don’t think you owe your fellow Africans anything, then you can understand why that rapist doesn’t owe your neighbor anything. If you want to live without rape, then you need to repent for letting the Africans starve… because you’ve already been forgiven for it.
bradley
July 17, 2009 at 5:54 am
I am still not sure I can accept that “forgiveness” is a truth. Removing the divinity (which I don’t bring up unless you do
) I don’t see this concept as a truth.
Here is the real issue, which I guess is where I get lost. I don’t understand this… (I don’t capitalize things as truth or god or “the way”. I don’t bring religion into the mix, but once the use of capitalization takes place I am forced to address that as being “religious” in nature.)
I am not being difficult in the least. Maybe I just don’t follow your thought here. If I want to live without rape then I need to repent for letting Africans starve? How are those related? What am I repenting for? What did I do “wrong” that begs forgiveness from the Africans? Am I supposed to feel guilty because of where I live and work? I didn’t choose where I was born. I didn’t choose to have my neighbor selected to be raped? I didn’t choose to have the Africans starve to death and/or die from a diseases that have stopped killing people elsewhere… THIS is my biggest ISSUE with religion. THE GUILT. I am supposed to feel BAD because of my enviroment?
It goes back to my other blog about prayer…
Mr. Atheist
July 18, 2009 at 3:08 pm
@ Novat
“I’ve made no such claim of anything you’re asking. if I start declaring things like catholic saint worship is not polytheism, please call me out.”
I never stated that you are saying anything like that. My point is that no one really can worship A GOD or SOME ENTITY with the presumption that it is the only answer to all the questions.
“Otherwise I ask that you at least show me respect enough to read what I’ve taken the time to type.”
I do respect you otherwise you’ll not find any of my answers in this blog.
” I’m plenty open to accepting Truth from any point of the globe. Since I believe all Truth comes from God, I can find peace with Truth in any color.”
Then I ask you again as you seem to keep insulting my intelligence…Why YOUR god and not another?
“Do you know some truths you could teach me?”
I am not a teacher. Neither are you. Your god isn’t. Neither is ANY OTHER god.
I love to learn form PEOPLE. Illuminism, Science, Facts. I am an academic, I cannot understand god. Any god.
Novat
July 21, 2009 at 2:28 am
God may not be the only answer, but it’s the best.
Post-Modernism is a wonderful time of enlightenment. I’m truly happy that I live in this time of such zeal for deconstructionism. This is the most powerful tool for learning we’ve discovered since the Renaissance, in my opinion. But, why are we suddenly so scared to take the information we’ve learned from deconstructing institutional thought and recreate a foundation for change in the future?
Post-Modernism is a rebellion from the rigidity of “moderna”. It’s a reaction to the systematic divorce from truth that arose from chasing the productivity of philosophical imperialism. But, are we destined to remain in this state of suspense, when all thought is subjective? Freedom for subjective thought is one thing… devaluing subjective perspective, by limiting its capacity for absolute truth seems like a self-induced handicap, to me. Acting PC is expected, but does that mean we’re not allowed our thoughts?
I believe there is only one God. Any difference in theology is the result of misunderstanding on everyone’s part, including mine. Why do you think I’m opposed to testing truths from other religions? My bible already shows, repeatedly, that we are open to understanding truths of previous beliefs. The bible adopted from the Sumerians, Egyptians, Israelites, Buddhists, and many others. What is so easily condemned as plagiarism, now a days, is the perfect demonstration of SEEKING truth… not just enforcing it.
My God is the way, the truth, and the life… wherever I find those, I find Him. Is there any other god than that?
@ Mr_A
It’s not just about guilt. There is guilt, though. However, I think your repulsion to that principle is because you’re jumping straight to the “guilt for hurting Almighty Zeus by looking at porn”. The guilt is because I know looking at younger, in-shape women nude hurts my wife’s self esteem as she’s grows a little older. Is that guilt wrong? Not at all… it just means I know I’m a shitty husband and will hopefully correct that behavior sooner than later.
If I could ask you this, though. When we first started chatting, you talked about changing man’s nature with love and knowledge. Why do you now seem to be content with how we treat one another? Wouldn’t guilt naturally be the first emotion on the path to correcting our wrong behavior?
I understand how you’re not willing to accept forgiveness as a truth. It takes faith… and I think when you hear “faith” you think it means you have to believe dinosaurs roamed the Earth a few thousand years ago.
—Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the essence of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.—
I have faith that forgiveness IS a truth, because I hope that mankind can be saved through it. If you ever DO contemplate how we treat one another… and maybe feel a little guilty, come up with a plan for overcoming our nature… one that doesn’t require you to perpetuate the undesirable treatment in the process. If you have anything to offer, other than forgiveness, I’m all ears.
bradley
July 21, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Porn… Does it hurt your wife’s self-esteem? Sure, if she believes that that is your “new” EXPECTATION.
I don’t think I have uttered that I am content with how we treat one another. I am not. Am I guilty of being mean and rude to people? Yes (perception is reality, right?). I think that with love comes acceptance. I try very hard to love every single day. Is it becoming more and more difficult as I get older? Of course. It is my challenge. I think it is a challenge to us all. Love is something that comes from understanding and knowledge and visa versa. I think back to a time when I could not STAND listening to Jazz. At. All. I took a music appreciation class and I became a fan…a lover if you will of Jazz. With exposure and understanding bonds are created. If people continue to “hide” behind psychological walls and divisive beliefs, then you are right, there is no chance in “hell” that we will ever overcome our nature. Nature is funny though. As creatures of this tiny speck in space, we love to feel that we belong to something. Sometimes that “something” is religion. Other times it is more of nationalism; think Olympics or the World Cup (I always cheer on the Italian team
). During and immediately following tragic events (9/11, tsunamis, hurricanes) we become ONE. It reminds me of that saying people use at funerals… “We only see each other when someone dies. Why does it always take tragedy to bring people together?”
I think of Music too when I think of finding a moment when no matter what race or religion or other differences exists there is UNITY, even if it is fleeting. It is great when you are in it, but once you leave the event…it is over. No matter HOW much you try, it is gone.
Forgiveness is something fanciful. I don’t believe that it is real or true when it comes to a truly painful event. Painful events are different to everyone. Your event (assuming you are human) is just as devastating as mine. There are some things that can never be forgiven, let alone forgotten. I think that as long as the memory is there, the hurt remains, no matter WHAT you say about forgiveness. Is that a challenge? I find that a waste of time.
Mr. Atheist
July 21, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Bradley, what you keep showing to me is everything but open mind. I can tell that either you don’t want to see a different point or you simply ignore my points/views.
You don’t sound any different form those vatican’s seminarists I used to play soccer with many years ago. They said thing because “they were told so”…onec again not using their minds.
“I believe there is only one God. Any difference in theology is the result of misunderstanding on everyone’s part, including mine. Why do you think I’m opposed to testing truths from other religions? My bible already shows, repeatedly, that we are open to understanding truths of previous beliefs. The bible adopted from the Sumerians, Egyptians, Israelites, Buddhists, and many others. What is so easily condemned as plagiarism, now a days, is the perfect demonstration of SEEKING truth… not just enforcing it.
My God is the way, the truth, and the life… wherever I find those, I find Him. Is there any other god than that?”
This is not an answer. This is not an answer to my question.
What you are saying can be substained by EVERY religion around the world. According to other religions, cultures, areas…the answer to your final question is YES, THERE ARE MANY OTHER GODS that show the way, the truth, and the life… wherever the followers find those, they find their god. So…I am going to ask you once again…WHY your god and not another? You are full of nice words but none of them make sense my friend. You sound like those Marine Corp Recruitement centers!
I know very well that in christianity many things are…stolen (so to speak) from other religions. Like fr example the celebration’s dates, the calendars and so on. Is that open mind or taking advantage of more radicated habits?
And more importantly…why you claim is a HE and not a SHE?
Novat
July 23, 2009 at 3:25 am
Greetings, good buddies!
Weird. I don’t really suppose I COULD prove open-mindedness. I asked if you could teach me some truths and you said you weren’t a teacher. I follow where there is truth being taught.
—1 John 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God…”—
Sounds open-minded to me… it doesn’t specify the name of a publisher as proof… just the author. If it’s truth, it’s from God.
—1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.”—
Hmmmm… same thing. Sounds like it’s saying don’t judge a book by it’s cover. Check it out… see if it’s truth… then, accept or reject.
—Matthew 7:15-16 “Beware of false prophets… You will recognize them by their fruits.”—
Or maybe this is the book and cover one… they all kind of run together. You see a pattern?
—John 16:13-14 “When the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak…”—
So you see… no one has ownership over Truth. There is one source of truth, but many speakers. If we want to know Truth, we have to measure it ourselves. There are some fantastic things being taught in all of the major religions. I think there is a whole lot to learn from all of them.
But, none of them offer the way to salvation, love, and (ultimately) spiritual oneness. All religions want it, which is why God provided it for all. The proof of the truth lies within us… we’re just so selfish, we don’t really show it that well. I’m trying harder everyday, though. I’m sorry we’re messing it up for you. The best I can hope for is to point you in the direction of the truth and pray there’s someone around you that can exhibit it.
That’s kind of like saying car makers stole the idea of transportation from horse trainers. It’s progress. All knowledge is built on what came before. Why should theology be any different than physics? Is all modern avionics stolen because it builds on Galileo’s free fall law?
Well, the ancient Jews had some funny ideas about men and women and authority, so God “had to be” He. And, since Jesus was a man it was sort of reinforced. We can call God a “She” if it makes you more comfortable, though.
I’m open-minded. 
bradley
July 23, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Ciao / Hola Bradley!
Wasn’t this a response to the “other” christian groups at the time? This does not seem as openminded to me. I would have given you a point for effort except that you are still using god as the barometer. If you are using god as the barometer, then that is not a good argument and it is unfalsifiable. So, as Alex Trebek used to say… “Oh…sorry!”
Your next quote..eh. Closer, but then again… This chapter is about the second coming of christ, right? It sounds more like “Kent Hovind may be a nut case, but he is teaching “truth”; don’t do as he walks, just do as he says.
Ha! I love this one. Especially when we find out that the televanglist is banging male prostitutes and doing drugs or the priests are molesting children…does that count as a false prophet according your Matthew quote?
If you keep reading the next verse says…(John 16:14) “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.” But that is not as important as the concept that this chapter is about martyrdom; doesn’t sound very openminded to me.
It seems funny to me when theists “claim” to be openminded, but in reality it is hard to be openminded when there IS a bias. Take for example two scientists. One is trying to prove his theory and the other is trying to disprove the same theory. There will eventually be a conclusion (assuming that the theory is testable). The “losing” scientist will accept (maybe not in his own head) that the facts prove a hypothesis. I doubt that we would have come very far with technology if scientist just threw their hands into the air and said…”Doesn’t matter. That’s how god made it.” That is not an argument. That is either one of two things. The first being laziness of the part of the scientist saying that, or the scientist did not have enough data/facts to prove the other scientist “wrong” if you will. That sounds absurd. Does it not? Why, then, use god as a barometer?
Ah…progress. I love this one. There is progress with the automobile. We went from the horse drawn carriage to the model “T” over night (just kidding). A short time later we were flying. A little after that we were on the Moon. ON THE MOON! That is progress. Why does “progress” not apply to christianity? You must admit that the Sumerians predated the Jews. Abraham was from Ur where there are known religious sects that predate the Jewish beliefs. Not to mention that the Egyptians were already around the time of Moses with their own set of beliefs. All of these influences… Progress or stealing or plagiarism? Doesn’t matter. But, I see ZERO progress in 2000 years when it comes to christianity. Same goes for the jews. Now it is just a tradition, nothing else. There is no room for progress when you are told there is only one truth. If there is only one truth why seek improvement?
I don’t think it’s a she at all. She would have started over like 3 million times until it was “just perfect”.
Mr. Atheist
July 24, 2009 at 12:03 am
Rrriiiight..hmm hmm… Well if you like finding morals, lessons to be learned or a path to follow, then why not mention Snow white and the 7 dwarfs or Little Red Riding Hood? There you can learn about good and bad, about right and wrong and which path to follow as well, nést pas mon ami?
I bet you cannot look past your own nose. I can tell. Have you tried to read the book you’re taking those quotes on their ORIGINAL versions? I bet you don’t even know other languages other than American-English…right? Well…let me tell you something written on your book as they were ORIGINALLY reported:
I could mention to you “Non scholae sed vitae discimus” (which is my creed)
Praetorians 10:34-35 “silentium est aureum”( do that when you’ve nothing to say…really..you check it out) or sticking to the roots…
“Η περιέργεια είναι η αρχή της σοφίας” which you should use some to see outside your mind sometimes. Areyou living in the midwest?
Again…you keep not answering my only question:
WHY YOUR GOD IS BETTER THEN THE OTHER GODS?
Novat
July 24, 2009 at 1:39 am
Mr_A… You make me laugh quite a bit. I catch myself smiling before I ever click my bookmark for your page.
You have a good point about if God is female she would start over again and again. I guess that would make the cyclic “big bang, big crunch” theory take on a whole new meaning. 
————-
As for your thoughts on the verses using God as the barometer to measure truth… I see it more like: We are the barometer, life is the air, and God is the pressure. We measure the air around us for the amount of God it contains.
————–
I couldn’t agree more about the 2 scientists. It’s very frustrating and I understand the circular reasoning component to belief. As I’ve said before… it’s a conscious decision to maintain a faith because of its marriage to the truth. It’s very hard sometimes during times of total lack of tangible proof, but the times that I experience God keep me motivated. I’m not really talking about feeling God’s presence or hearing a voice or anything. I’m talking about the moment when a truth is realized for what it is. When that happens… you can almost trace, precisely, the entire chain of events that brought about the understanding. You know what I’m talking about, I’m sure… and you don’t even believe in God. If you learn how to recognize the potential purpose of the events, the stage is set for gaining spiritual knowledge… wisdom. That’s the kind of Knowledge you need to accompany Love.
————–
Progress… I think we’ve made quite a bit of progress. We’ve “sampled some spirits” and are in the process of rejecting them. Like… Why would God want over 100 years of time and resources to be spent building St. Peter’s Basilica? What if the church had, instead, worked harder at finding cures, feeding people, and improving mankind? Who knows?… people are impressed by power, maybe there was purpose after all. It just doesn’t sound like God anymore, to me. It helped the spread, but now it’s time for salvation.
I’ll say this, though. Some of the Sumerian myths make a little more sense, to me. Like the “Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta”/Tower of Babel myths… Enmerkar seems way more like a valuable “real world, real God” warning on imperialism than does the message behind the Tower of Babel. The Tower of Babel DOES teach pride, though… and that’s HUGE, scripturally. I’m glad we have both. I also think the Epic of Gilgamesh has some pretty cool insight when you think about the battle for the separation between man and animal, man’s civilization, and man’s later dominance over nature. Genesis states a clear distinction, but something about Gilgamesh reeks of truth, too.
————–
Dearest Novat,
I don’t know if it’s because I’m excited and pumped up about the weekend being here, so anything less than positive seems dramatic… or if it’s a cultural barrier, but… You kind of strike me as a bit abrasive. I’m not really bothered by it, but I can’t help but notice. Cheers, none the less.
I think the really important stuff that can be learned about people can be found in Winnie the Pooh. Man, that sums up everyone, doesn’t it?
In an effort to look beyond the truth taught in my Bible, I’ll inquire about yours. Since I don’t know you personally, I have to just come out and ask. How does being abrasive serve you in life? Does being abrasive increase the positive reactions you encounter in life? Does it help encourage all of that peace, love and cumbaya crap that I’m looking for? I only ask because I actually have another guy I know trying to teach me how, after all of this time, money actually does bring happiness. Now I’m REALLY starting to feel a bit naive.
I’m just playing with you, Novat… weekend and all. (But I did test both for truth, though)
What are you talking about? I BARELY know English.
Could you share some more, please? I don’t quite know what you’re getting at.
Are you just going to keep asking until you have something you can argue with? How many other gods do you believe in? It’s not about my God beating up your god. It’s about who’s teaching the words of OUR God. If it’s truth, I’ll take it. Before you blow a gasket… I know there are other peoples that worship other gods. I can respect their beliefs and still think to myself that they’re talking about MY God. I don’t have a need to PROVE my God is better. I just would like us all to toss our Truths in the pool and see which ones float. It’s not The Pepsi Challenge, you know?
bradley
July 24, 2009 at 11:10 pm
Would you say that we assign meaning to the meaningless? I know that I am very guilty of this. I was known to be one to draw a string of meaning from the meaningless. (I am/slowly-not-so-much-anymore a consipiracist so this comes easy to me and is hard to shake lose. I am not sure if I owe this to my Christian upbringing or what exactly.) Sometimes things happen and we call them coincidences or “god was watching” and “god intervened”. That’s nice. My set of atoms and molecules interested the creator of all things in and of and out of this world and universe and he noticed me? (please refrain from quoting the sands and the number of hairs on my head…YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!)
I think we can find meaning in pretty much anything. We can draw a line from some terrible incident (usually the case) to what our lives are today. If I had not eaten my Turkey Pot Pie in 3rd grade and gotten sick and not gone to the hospital the school I was attending would not have…which lead me to a Christian school where I met… and here I am writing a Blog (mostly) about god not existing. Like that? I am sure you can pick a spot in time and see how it would represent the Frostian crossroad.
Mr. Atheist
July 27, 2009 at 8:48 pm
How about… the stars in the sky? Bwaaahahahaha.
I think we’re seeing the same truth, though from opposite perspectives. I guess I didn’t explain myself all that well the last time we touched on purpose. I’ll concede that we do assign meaning to events. We can only assume the existence/non- of a SUPREME purpose for events. The best we can say (with assurance) is that the grand purpose of the event is to learn from. Then it becomes the (far easier) “subjective” purpose to the possessive conscious. I’m sorry, though… I just don’t understand why you would choose to abandon this truth… regardless of your disbelief in a god. Is it just the package it comes in that you don’t like?
I’m not really sure what I think about some type of “providential fate” like you are describing as a chain of events… I’m slowly(very) working through it… not really on the top of my theological to-do list.
I do think, though, that we have an unlimited number of choices we can potentially make, in the wake of events, that determine our course in life. While there are many degrees and shades of value in our decisions, they can be carved down to an absolute: positive or negative. And, while insignificant quantities of positive/negative results from our decisions may not have a total effect on every facet of our lives, a continuous push in either direction (in each corresponding facet) WILL ultimately be reflected in all facets within us, as a whole. What do you think of this truth? It kind of follows purpose.
On a side note… I LOVE a good conspiracy theory. The zeitgeist movies were tip-top for many reasons… even if the actual facts were a bit too contrived. I’m even somewhat amused by the Planet X / Nibiru thing going around. What if it were really true? Neato. Are you a sci-fi fan at all?
bradley
July 28, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Ah, yes, our old friends the Sumerians. Nice people. Not very talkative, but very nice.
Sci-fi. Are you trying to bait me? If are drawing a line in the sand and asking me point blank…Star Wars or Star Trek, I will have to say Star Wars. If by sci-fi you mean Brazil and anything by Terry Gilliam, then I am in. I just saw the new horror film “Idiocracy”. Have you seen that? I am not into horror at all (at all) but this one was the scariest thing I have seen since they made Uncle Stevie’s bad dog book into a movie. “Idiocracy” is and will be the scariest thing I have seen. Maybe because it is true(?). Sort of like how “Network” played so unbelievablly real in the mid 70s… That is also a great horror flick. Sorry, where were we?
Devine purpose… Sumerians… Truth…
If positive results should, in theory, make for an overall positive result then any negative result should be overshadowed and blocked by the overwhelming presence of position results, right? What about Michael Jackson? What about the many “fallen” televangelists? Mostly positives, right? One tiny negative. Are they not defined by that speck vs. the whole? Is that you mean by “truth”?
Mr. Atheist
July 28, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Old school star wars was cool. I never really gave star trek a chance, to be honest. I do enjoy some Robert Heinlein, Arthur C Clarke, and Douglas Adams, though… only a little nerdy. I checked out the Idiocracy trailer a few minutes ago and it looks quite silly… I might take a look at it if it’s enough to rank as your #1 scariest reality.
I’m not talking about a lifetime score card. I’m talking about our perspective that gets skewed left or right by the behaviors we reinforce, either emotionally or physically. As our perspective slowly deviates from a previous position, our perceived reality changes to reflect our heart. Our perspective can, sometimes, make us feel limited in our choices, based on the consequences of our actions. The environmental conditioning, from our perception of reality, becomes the ruling body over our whole existence. We live as slaves to our own consequences, so to speak. And, this truth is as real for society as whole, as it is for us individually.
The good news, however, is we also have the truth of forgiveness to redeem us from any “wrong” path we realize we’re on. Even if you don’t like the label “forgiveness”, the whole message of the gospel about forgiveness is that our actions no longer carry supreme PERSONAL consequence. There are still consequences for our actions(personally and socially), but those actions do not have to damn our entire future to life in chains. A tad dramatic, I know, but the truth remains. We always possess the spiritual freedom, if not physical freedom, to turn back toward the path of light… or darkness.(more of the dramatic) We are 100% free.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. We don’t HAVE to be defined by that speck. Oh, society may define us by that speck… but that’s why we’re trying to spread the message of forgiveness, friend. If we understand our own forgiveness, we can forgive others as well.
Anything else I can answer on this… or discuss? I hope so, but I’d also like to get on into the power of Christ.
bradley
July 29, 2009 at 11:40 am
I never got into Star Trek. I tried. I really did. Couldn’t do it. I do prefer the untouched-unrevised original trilogy. Purist? Maybe.
Same goes for colorization, E.T. and the non-smoking Navy of Pearl Harbor.
Initially I refused to see Idiocracy based on the trailer alone. If you can spare the 83 minutes or so… It’s not ALL that hilarious. The character’s are not that well developed (that was the pointI think) and as far as cinematography? It’s not Arthur C. Miller’s Idiocracy now is it?
Mr. Atheist
July 29, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Well, I managed to watch Idiocracy last night. I actually remember it coming out, now, a while back. Boy, that really is a nightmare. It was pretty funny, though. It fit right in to my sophomoric sense of humor, I guess. There were parts that were stupid, but then just when I thought it was going to fall into complete stupidity, hilarity ensued. It would have been far better with a proper California style buzz, but I enjoyed myself.
I have to share something with you, now… a confession, if you will. Since my last post I’ve been enjoying hashing out some things in my relationship with God.
Since we’ve been chatting I’ve tried to share the message with you in a language that you could relate to, because I feel like you’re dismissing some quality knowledge of Man, our environment, and life… perhaps because of Christendom in general. Well, toward the end of my last comment I sort of blurted out without thinking. I guess I was led by the spirit… or caught up in the moment, for the atheist in you.
After I submitted and read back over it, I thought, “F**K, why did I write that?” It’s not because of lack of info… it’s just that anything I attribute to the “power of Christ” can easily be written off as any other thing. Without the faith, or experiencing it yourself, I’m just a nutty holy-roller that… [insert whatever here].
Well, I enjoy some good quiet time while I run and as I was working through some thoughts, I got a little mad because, man, if God wanted this done… wouldn’t he make it easy? But, that never happens. So, I’ve wrestled with God and myself quite a bit since… dealing with some pride… thinking about how to be a good friend to you… but mostly, I’m going to be a little selfish and let God work a little bit in me, ok?
Do you ever do that… wrestle with yourself? Like, you know what needs to be done or said, but you don’t want to do it… because maybe it’s just not logical and won’t be well received?
Anyway… I’m going to take some time to articulate myself a little and see if there’s a little room for self-growth.
So, what kind of music fan are ya? I know you like jazz. (I happen to be listening to a little Dave Brubeck “Time out”, as I speak. But, lately I just can’t seem to get enough “TV on the Radio” (highly recommend), and some “Hillsong United”. (I don’t really even like christian “rock” but Hillsong really is quality.)
bradley
July 30, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Ha! Your “power of christ” speech. Listen, I understand where you are and were you are coming from. My soul is a stake. You couldn’t help yourself. It just happened. I remember “feeling” that “fire within” and the ” need” to “share”. Unless things have changed since I left… I understand.
I cannot believe in god. Just as much as you cannot believe in santa claus or the tooth fairy as actual beings. (I am making a huge assumption here with those two examples, right? Right?)
If you argued that the santa claus was real wouldn’t you have to prove it to the non-believer? It can be argued that santa is as moral as god. Santa rewards those that behave and punishes those who are not. If you are good and leave a sacrifice (milk and cookies) for the old guy he will reward you with goodness (store bought variety, but goodness just the same). If you are bad you are left with a lump of coal (symbol for hell…foreshadowing?). Santa has his helpers (angels) that for some reason are always little people they do the hard, day-to-day labor, while santa reads through letters (answers prayers) of all the people (children) around the world. He listens to all of them at the same time. He some how is present everywhere at the same time… sounds godlike to me. Assuming you believe in santa claus… how do you convince others to come along? You couldn’t. This is god to me. You, and all others who are “praying” for my soul are just as silly as those who believe in santa. Santa is not real. Right? If he is and you believed him you would have to prove it. Santa “makes” children behave. He has been used as a behavior correction tool for a long time (just as god has). Tell me the difference in beliefs? Why is belief in santa different than belief in god? Neither can be proven as neither exists…
…
Music. Ah… Sweet music.
My tastes vary from classical to international folk to dance remixes and hip-hop to Jazz and rock ‘n roll. My iPod is filled with such a variety it scares most people. I tend to like movie scores. John Williams is one of my favirotes as is Zimmer and Bernstein. I stream italian radio (RTL 102.5) usually during the day to keep up my comprehension (usually through DJs as they play quite a few “american” songs
). Brubeck is a genius. Miles and Coltrane, Roach, Johnstone… I like Public Enemy. NWA. Counting Crows. BIlly Joel. Van Morrison including THEM)… I am all over the place. But generally…movie scores. Oh and there is an italian singer songwriter who is genius (I am sure I will catch hellfire and brimstone from Novat…) that I listen to at least daily… Jovannoti.
Phew! Are you still there?
Mr. Atheist
July 31, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Man, you left out Charlie Mingus “Boogie Shop Shuffle”? You do have a pretty wide musical interest. Not a country music fan? Me neither… I do love some Johnny Cash, though. I’ve never heard of Jovannoti, but thank God for modern technology. Perhaps “Jovannoti” is to “Mr_A”, as “Cheb Khaled” is to “bradley.” I wouldn’t call Khaled a genius… but it’s still fun to play it really loud at red lights with my windows down.
I enjoyed your santa analogy quite a bit. You’ve worked it out nicely. Where does the sleigh and reindeer fit in, though? All I can picture is Buddy Christ surfin’ on the cross, spreading salvation cheer.
Maybe I’m still a little cold-hearted… but, I just kind of see it more like sharing music interests. I’ve discovered something I enjoy which adds a fullness to an ordinary, meaningless existence… and I want to share it. Not really a need… Who am I to tell others what they NEED?
I dunno… do you believe you have a soul? I think there is definitely something to our consciousness… and my relationship with Christ is definitely helping it.
bradley
August 1, 2009 at 7:22 am
I left out the 9 reindeer as I thought it would be obvious that they represent the gifts of the spirit found in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.
Not a fan of country and western as it was once called in this country. I will have to check out Cheb Khaled.
Do I have a soul? No. There is no soul. We wish there was a soul, alas, there is no proof of that either!
Sorry. The entire “thing” we are talking about talks place in the mind (not sure where that is exactly…as sometimes we feel with our heart and we all have had a gut feeling about something…)
Mr. Atheist
August 1, 2009 at 8:46 am
HA! I love it. This santa stuff is getting far too freaky. It’s so similar, maybe he’s the anti-christ. I don’t think I’m trusting Santa anymore… or should I say SATAN. Muaahahahahaha.
Fair enough… my relationship with God is helping the “thing” in my mind.
Do you have any further advice I can add to MY truth to help me with my mind thing?
I meant to respond to you mentioning folks praying about your soul, but it didn’t get included last time. I understand your position on prayer, based on other entries in your blog.
I can’t really say prayer “works” the way you’re implying. Maybe it does. It certainly seems like it does when they coincidentally get answered. Like… if I look all over my house, garage, basement, and yard for the only pair of wire cutters I own, but can’t find. Then, I pray to ask God to help me find them. Then within about 3 minutes I think of a place that I haven’t checked… I go look… and… nope, not there either. Pffft… God… But, then as I’m turning around I happen to catch a glimpse from a different angle of something yellow sticking out from under a box in the corner. Good ol’ prayer.
And then… if God didn’t help me find the wire cutters. “Well… I can’t control everything… only One can… and He didn’t do it.”
The thing about everyone “praying for your soul”… maybe it’ll work. I don’t really know. What I DO see it doing, though, is help me grow a love and caring for you… a virtual stranger. Because, if you are important enough to take to my God Almighty… you’re cool enough for me to take the time to get to know. So, that can’t be ALL bad, can it?
bradley
August 1, 2009 at 11:56 am
I was waiting for “Satan” for Santa. Ha! Is it so freaky that it is not worth a response? Come on. You’ve never shied away before… Why just “freaky” as a dimissal? I am not aware of you ever backing down prior to this… (yes, I am taunting you because I think this is worth discussing. Sometimes it’s the scary places that provide fertile ground for growth. Remember Luke in Empire going to the “tree cave” to duel with Vader? You are Luke. (Lucky bastard!…okay not that Lucky. I always wanted to be Han Solo…he has the Millenium Falcon, a Wookie as a pal and HE GETS THE GIRL!).
As far as santa as the anti-christ… Not really. I think it is a parallel worth exploring. santa and god as equals, not as opposites. So, let’s discuss… PLEASE!!!
On topic of prayer working… Negative. There has been no “real” evidence of this ever occurring. I love the prayer… “god, help me find the wire cutters…” Ha! The being that created this HUGE universe is going to stop his entire existence to help you find wire cutters?!? One word for you Bradley… Organize!
I do enjoy this reparté. I get a kick out of getting to know someone anonymously. I actually, like you have pointed out, grow with every prodding question. It’s funny, our separate position seem to become MORE solid the more we discuss.
I want SANTA answers!
Mr. Atheist
August 1, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Hmmmm… critical thinking about Old St. Nick.
First, the anti-christ. My reference was more for the lolz than accuracy. Although, I thought the anti-christ was suppose to manifest as a similar representation, but ultimately lead to enslavement instead of freedom… because… if there’s only 1 way… and if it’s “anti”… it must lead somewhere else. Now… who knows if the full intention was realized in the beginning or if it is a matter of turning to the dark side like Vader. Regardless… there’s nothing like American greed and lust to turn a gifting occasion into all out credit debt enslavement. That’s anti-christ, suckah.
Now for Kris Kringle:
I’m curious where you’re going with this. I understand the similarities. It’s a familiar story that eventually gets repeated as time goes on. Your reindeer/spiritual gifts analogy was clever, but I exclude it from the story.
The parallel with good/bad behavior being rewarded/punished in a God-like manner may, on the surface, seem provocative… though I’m more interested with the way it actually plays out. Isn’t the parental application of behavioral prerequisites a bit futile? Is any child capable of total good behavior? And if he/she is, wouldn’t we just move the bar up because we expect what they’re capable of… not less. However, is any child really on Santa’s naughty list? Does any child get the coal? Our expectation would be unfair, right?
I believe the only child that doesn’t get a reward, in this scenario… is the child that ran away from home before Christmas. The gifts were already bought and waiting. The child chose not to get them.
See what I did there?
OK, OK, OK… you don’t like my wire cutters prayer story. It did happen, but fine…
My mom was healed through laying on of hands and prayer when I was 16. She had cranial dystonia for about 6 years and bounced around from medicine to medicine the whole time, with the only medicine actually reducing her facial paralysis to a couple of days a week soon being discontinued.
The event wasn’t some tent revival scam. As far as I know my church had never conducted anything like it. Sadly… I was such a bastard back then (and the fact that I thought all God stuff was rubbish) that I didn’t even go to support my own mom. Well, she was healed on the spot, with zero symptoms returning period. Even with that being in my own family, I still didn’t believe and it took another 12 years or so before I did start believing. Honestly, even today that’s not the reason I believe. But, because I believe… I know it was God.
I can accept full well that there may be a perfectly good scientific reason for it going away. I’m almost certain there is one… because it happened. That’s what Truth is. I like knowing that Henry Ford created the first consumer automobile… but I also know he used a bunch of wheels, bolts and an internal combustion engine.
We know God, not by the image you have created for him, but by the behaviors he exhibits. I know he puts down his paintbrush to help me, because I’ve witnessed it. Combine that with what others said about Him previously, and I call it truth.
bradley
August 1, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Prayer. Hmm. I found the following on this site:
“For some people, their dystonia may sometimes improve or disappear altogether for no apparent reason. The likelihood of a total remission of symptoms has been estimated as somewhere between one-in-ten and one-in-twenty. In some cases, the dystonia may eventually return, but in others it will disappear completely.”
I know…Cosmic killjoy. Sorry. I am glad your mother was better. I also read, on another site, that relaxation helps too (maybe there was something in the “relaxation” aspect of the the “prayer”.
I was not going anywhere with the santa analogy. It just seems that if santa (satan) can be dismissed so easily, why can’t god be dismissed for the same reasons? The believers in god have pastors/ministers/rabbis/imams/priests and santa has parents as his purveyors. As far as the kid who ran away… Was he molested? Was there abuse in the home? I am just saying…if that is your prodigal analogy…
Not gonna happen.
I have to get back to you on the “slavery” bit you mentioned earlier. I do want to touch on that…it might be important it might not. Are you familiar with St. Augustine’s writings?
Mr. Atheist
August 1, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Bradley. you have no answer to my question then. I have no time to loose. I’ll keep worshipping my only god then. And I know Mr.A worships that as well…
Novat
August 2, 2009 at 6:38 am
Nah… no killjoy. Whatever the “document-able” reason was… the truth remains. Prayer worked for her to be healed. At the time she was, I think, 1 of 4 known cases of her particular type of dystonia. She was a case study for quite a few years after… because of it’s total remission.
It doesn’t bother me that you don’t believe it was God that healed her. (It made the whole panel of doctors studying her uncomfortable too) But, don’t you think it would be a good idea if doctors added prayer to the treatment? Whether or not there’s a deity on the receiving end of that prayer hotline… it definitely worked in this case.
Yes. Share on.
bradley
August 2, 2009 at 7:35 am
Have you read Augustine’s Confessions? Thoughts? I just started reading again (read years ago as a christian) and looking at it now… Wow. His idea of belief is completely fear based but mostly, it strikes me as a manual for slavery than anything else. I will need to pull it out and actually count the number of times he relates belief to slavery…
When did you read it last?
Mr. Atheist
August 4, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Hiya Mr_A.
I read a lot of Augustine in school and then again when I decided it was time to stop running. When I made my decision to start listening to God, I couldn’t get enough. I flew through the bible in about 3 months, with the NT being studied quite heavily. Then it was time for the early church fathers. I didn’t really get the significance back then.
Since you mentioned him the other day, I decided to flip back through a few of the books. I’ve gotta say… it speaks more to me now than back then. I just can’t help but be overwhelmed by the similarities in the passion he demonstrates. It’s a little “primitive” in some respects… but, it is amazingly encouraging to read how consistent God is when a person decides to follow.
As for his confession seeming like belief is like slavery… It just doesn’t feel that way to me. No more than, say, deciding to have a job so you can eat is slavery… or going on a diet is slavery… or going jogging everyday to hopefully come off of blood pressure meds being slavery.
If that’s what you’re talking about, ok… slavery. I’ve decided to be a slave to Christ, because He has proven to love, protect, strengthen, rebirth, and excite. I’ll take some of that, please… and lower blood pressure.
————
Greetings Novat…
I’m sorry my comments haven’t found harmony with your scheduling. The truth is… I don’t really have time to repeat myself over and over. I have been more than accommodating. Best of luck… I’ll be happy to answer any questions about things I have already written… or simply hang around… there’s sure to be another attempt to clarify.
bradley
August 6, 2009 at 5:15 am
What have I done? Pushing a christian to read christian literature? Am I outta my mind?
Why do we always end up back at slavery?
Slavery to a job, to a diet, to jogging…not really slavery. Reading “Confessions” it is the worst kind of slavery. Slavery to a master. You are hoping to please something that does not exist. At least with jogging you lower your blood pressure and with working it keeps you away from day-time television and gives you money to live off of. Not slavery at all. With these two “slave” situations you benefit and so does your family. With the slavery to a god that doesn’t exist…where you are “scared” into submission… Not my kind of slavery.
Here are some highlights. Curious as to your take on these…
“The rich man asks the good Master what he is to do to win eternal life.” God is the good Master?
“[...]O Lord, you created happiness and give it to us to ease our lives.” Why didn’t he just make us always happy?
“Hope would not be hope at all if its object were in view.” Huh? Why bother with hope and faith if all god has to do is manifest himself to us all? Seems like cat and mouse to me. Hide and seek; but only the seek part.
I still do not understand the point of angels. Augustine states that god is the “arbiter only, not creator, of sin.” Didn’t he make the fallen angel before the angel fell? IF he made the angel and the angel fell where did he fall to? IF god didn’t create the abyss, who did?
Augustine feels bad and sinful because he is literate?
I am a little curious as to your thoughts on these quotes.
Do you read books that are not “christian”? Have you read any of Ehrman’s titles or Barker’s work?
Mr. Atheist
August 6, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Happy Friday!
Yes, thanks for encouraging me to read it. If only reading it was all we needed. I think that’s why we should commit scripture to memory. If we can meditate on the Word throughout the day, then when the occasion presents itself… the memorized Word can become understanding. It’s when our faith is rewarded with wisdom. We have faith that God’s Word is true, so we study… then the truth is revealed during the coarse of our life. But hey, Augustine was just trying to figure it all out like us. Right?
Because no one wants to be a slave. We all WANT nirvana, but just can’t seem to reach it.
You just don’t see the benefit. If there was no doctrine of heaven or hell to coax or frighten people into following(and people still followed), would you still dismiss the benefits? I can understand it being difficult to believe people’s true intention when there’s still that carrot on a stick out there. I really hope there IS a heaven somewhere… I’m not living for it, though.
Right now I’m trying to figure how we can really live selflessly, with love for others, while we anticipate a future when divine justice will finally tilt in our favor. Can we REALLY be selfless under that condition?(rhetorical)
I remember back when I used to smoke. I could easily go a weekend without smoking, knowing that I could smoke again on Monday. Quitting smoking forever was totally different. I REALLY quit… not simply waited out the clock.
I think so. In the diet slavery we are in… Who is the good master? Fatty Gluttony… or… Nutritional Self Control
We always have to sacrifice to have what we really want.
Is that possible? He created life. Is life without death really life? It’s kind of like saying: “Why did he make the color red have color?”
After all this time… you still think we are talking about Zeus? Will his big fluffy white beard tickle our ears when we hug? If that’s what you were looking for when your faith failed, it all makes sense. Why stop there? You know what? I stand before you right now and profess that unless “regional vernacularism”, itself, doesn’t stand before me and dances a jig… I won’t believe. Screw Mark Twain and all his lies… there’s no such thing as “the way people talk.”
God has, and always will, manifest Himself to us. You’re just looking for the wrong substance. Haven’t you read the bible?
Beats me, man. It definitely does sound like there’s some powerful truth in that repeated theme, throughout the Bible, though. When we gained a consciousness that could understand purpose, why would we go on living without meaning? We finally could, for the first time in creation, decide the direction of our development. How can you believe in evolution and want to reject our own civilization? Apes may feel guilt and remorse for murder… who knows? I KNOW WE do, though… and I’m rather keen on trying to stop it. I’ll sample anything else we discover God teaching us in the future, also. If it’s truth, I’ll do my best to follow. Or we can keep falling…
Hmmmm… I don’t quite know about that. I see more like he is wishing folks could get their priorities right. We only live on this earth for a short time. How can we change the world when people sit around and watch Idiocracy all day? Or we can keep falling…
I’ve read a few. What are these about? It sounds like you’re finally about to start teaching me some truth you’ve learned, since rejecting the Word. Let’s test some of them out.
Sorry for the wall of text… whew… lot of questions.
bradley
August 7, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Well for me the first few steps were hard as I need to re-wire my thinking and remove the god-goggles. It takes a serious digestive system to get through the errancy of the bible. Ehrman’s books, both great reads, are perfect. Tread carefully as they will lead to more reading and more questions. He really put a different perspective on the bible. I like what he had to say.
The two books I would recommend are:
Misquoting Jesus
God’s Problem
Happy reading?
I am just finishing up on Barker’s “godless”. I will let you know… (at this point it is like preaching to the choir-pun not intended- reading books by atheists) Oh, these books are also available at your local library. (I hope)
Mr. Atheist
August 10, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Awww… I thought you were going to teach me some advanced truths.
See, here’s my position. I’m searching for answers. Not really answers to questions we cannot affect, rather, answers to how I can live my life using the abilities that Man actually possesses. Oh, I do daydream sometimes about epic “why does God…?” stuff, but can we ever answer those?
I’m going to go out on a limb, here, and make a huge assumption. (you know what they say about assumptions)
I think your lack of acceptance of forgiveness has cast you into an unfortunate cycle of despair. Sorry… I DO like you. I think, like all of us, you had questions and couldn’t find the answer. You revered yourself with such esteem that your inability to arrive at answers grew a hidden anger, looking for a target.
Your childhood exposure to God gave you a hint of a world “with all the answers”. Your failure to understand that truth gave way for your pride to take further grip. With no answers for yourself, your pride clung to the only emotion you knew… anger. The Christian friends that turned their back on you were only 1/2 the problem. The other 1/2 was your pride that held them accountable for failing to provide you with the answers you couldn’t understand.
Your pride had such control that you sought out anyone that could explain why YOU didn’t have the answers. Unfortunately, finding satisfaction is easy when you dismiss ALL answers, period. If there is no purpose, no meaning, no reason… then there’s no “answer” that your pride could not face.
Without forgiveness, you have such an anger toward God, the church, and theists, that your pride will not allow you to move on. You’ve confessed that you don’t believe in God… so why waste your time pursuing it? Can your pride forgive those accused of “misleading” you?… without an understanding of forgiveness? It would appear not. The delusional despair you’re trapped in has you believing that your pride will all be better when you “defeat” a God you don’t even believe in. Don’t you see?
I’ve been where you are. I know there is no truth beyond Christ… I still look, though. (feeling a little futile by now) The difference, though, you’ve never been where I am. You read the books and attended the church, but you never believed the Truth.
From day one I’ve known you didn’t understand the Truth. For almost two months I’ve watched as you’ve demonstrated, perfectly, everything in life without the essential… forgiveness. Everything you’ve commented to me illustrates a life without it. It would seem your entire mission in life, now, hinges on your lack of it. You’re missing forgiveness.
You need to forgive God. You need to forgive God for being God. You need to forgive God for making you only Man. YOU have already been forgiven… it’s just still causing you problems. It’s for YOUR own sake. We NEED forgiveness, mr_a. Man is lost without it.
Please don’t hate me, mr_a. It just hurts to see you suffer. Even if you don’t see it now, you will one day… and my only contact with you is through your blog… today.
——————–
Since you didn’t provide me with any truths from your recommendations, I’ll have to extrapolate.
The truth in:
Misquoting Jesus – man is corrupt… my Bible is full of that… anything new?
God’s Problem – we want answers for suffering… my Bible is full of that… anything new?
bradley
August 10, 2009 at 5:42 pm
I really hate this wordpress interface sometimes. I was already done with my reply and was going to go and copy and paste some of your quotes… BAM. I double clicked and it sent me to “edit” your post. (I don’t edit posts unless they are hurtful).
So I guess I need to start over.
Ugh. Off to word I go.
You are searching for answers. You want answers to how you can live your life with the tools you have.
Your god gave you a brain, but you are only willing to go so far with it? You stop asking when it gets to god and god has the final answers? All answers lead back to god? That’s it?
You seem like, wait, you are an intelligent individual. I will assume you are a man since you are using Bradley as your handle. (You never know right?) Why do you stop at questioning your bible and the words you feel are the “final” word? Seems limited and, quite frankly, out of character. Not the Bradley I have gotten to know. (Has it been 2 months already?)
I have to say that you are a liar. I cannot believe that only two months into our relationship you are already lying. You said a limb. Not an entire tree. You call this a limb??
I must correct you. I am not in despair. I have not lost hope. To be honest and this may sounds a bit mean, but there is no hope in god. I believe you to be following hopelessly and aimlessly. You are hoping after nothing. There is nothing there. Have I lost hope because I don’t follow your hope?
The childhood you discuss gave me a hint of nothing. The only answers I heard were …
“That is how god wanted it.”
“God made it that way.”
And my favorite?
“God says so.”
Imagine if that satisfied everyone. We wouldn’t be communicating on this thing. There is no excuse for that. There is no excuse for stifling knowledge, which I believe a belief in god does. If I had followed that course, blindly, we wouldn’t be here right now exchanging ideas. We are drawn to what is different. What is different is intriguing and curiosity builds stronger brains and this allows the expansion on what we know and what we understand and build compassion…get us closer to truths. Truths. There is no absolute truth. There are many truths and everyone represents a different truth. We all have a truth all our own. I strive to get that out of strangers and friends alike. That is my truth. In knowing your truth and sharing my truth, it then becomes something new altogether. What we share here may or may not be read by anyone other than you and me. That is fine. I don’t care. I am not doing this to feel good and get 3 million hits a day. That would be nice, but somehow I would lose something. I think you know what I mean.
As far as answers being held back by pride? Sorry. I don’t get it. I need you to explain forgiveness and pride. Explain it to me.
If you really truly have been where I am, why are you not ahead of me? Why are you holding on to 2000 year old knowledge? Do you still hunt and gather? Are your sheep all accounted for? Did you send this via smoke signal? No. You are here and you are now. Yet you are holding on to technology that is 2 millennia old. Why? You are holding on to beliefs from a time when people thought the earth was flat.
It’s funny. You quickly dismiss readings outside of your core belief. Are you afraid of other truths? I CAN say I was in your shoes once. For a long time and as you pointed out the difference is/was belief. You believe it. I didn’t/don’t. But, I will say that I refused to read ANYTHING outside of the accepted “truth” for fear.
Is it any coincidence that the cause for “the fall of man” was eating from the forbidden fruit? What tree was the fruit growing from? Ah…the tree of knowledge, right?
How did it get there?
Who planted it there?
Why plant it?
He gave knowledge and then condemns you for seeking it out? Wow.
Would you do that as a teacher? As a parent?
I don’t hate.
Mr. Atheist
August 10, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Heheh. So, I’m way off. It’s not like that’s the first time.
To sum up your thoughts and explain myself:
Mr_A: “There is no absolute truth. Everyone has their own truth”
bradley: That’s the difference between polytheism and monotheism. Rather than everyone “owning” their own truth, it can be more accurately identified as 1 absolute truth that encompasses all areas of life. Owning our own truths creates a position of sovereignty that perpetuates hierarchy within an understood equality amongst Man. Don’t we want to be equal? It’s all about being equal… across the board… from head to toe. We are equally valuable in God’s eyes. We are all equally guilty of being a threat to humanity. And… we are all equal in not being able to judge the intensity of that threat. Equal… under one truth. Isn’t the whole pantheon of human sovereignty what leads to physical slavery… both literally and figuratively.
Mr_A: “You believe Old School junk. Use your brain, fool.”
bradley: I believe what is true. The fact is, the people of the Scripture were dead-on with their understanding of Man. They correctly identified the problems, the causes, and the solution. Once you see that, how can you dismiss it? People may not believe in God, but to me, failing to see the truth in the Bible would be the same as suddenly dismissing the notion that we need oxygen.
Remember in Idiocracy how they used Powerade(or whatever) for everything, replacing water… because they lost touch with truth? If only they had kept a faith in the bible, ya?
I don’t stop thinking when it gets to God, mr_a. I have no problem with scientific discovery, influx of foreign culture, or revolutionary thought. What have I said to make you think otherwise? I DO believe repenting for our wrongs and accepting Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection as a means of obtaining forgiveness is the only way for salvation. I’m not opposed to seeking more… I just see no need to dethrone the only savior we have for that which you claim to have found, but will not share.
Mr_A: “I’m angry at God because I would rule mankind differently, and better.”
bradley: I get angry, too, mr_a. I think you might be getting a little hung up with some of the language in the bible. The tree of knowledge was not just the tree of knowledge. It was the knowledge of good and evil. I don’t think God wanted us to remain ignorant. He just wanted us to not condemn ourselves to death. Everything in the garden was good and wonderful for Man, except unrighteous judgment. You may could question as to why God put that tree there, period, if it was bad… who knows? It seems more like a weed that grows as a result of our development, personally… but I’m just some guy making an observation. I guess maybe for us to civilize, it would have to be part of our pallete to paint from. The trick is to discover how to judge righteously, right?
My bible teaches us how to do it. We seek forgiveness and forgive others. We repent for our wrong, because we were forgiven. We live our life according to a conscience that changes by will of the Holy Spirit. We allow God to work on the rest of mankind, in His own time. When we lose trust in God and take on the task of whipping everyone else into shape, we do so from a position of unrighteousness, due to a finite knowledge. People get enslaved… shunned… beaten… and, ultimately, crucified. We’re just Man… equal Man.
Mr_A: “Please explain yourself about pride, or be DAMNED.”
bradley: Whoa, whoa… easy there, big fella’. What I meant by saying that is your pride grew as a defensive mechanism to fill the void left by unanswered questions. The rampant pride translated unknown truth into nonexistent truth. Now everyone that believes in God(because a magic cloud-dweller is all you’ve reduced spiritual faith to), is a blind, idiot sheep.
——————
Do you have any kids? I think I remember reading an earlier blog entry saying you did not. I have a soon-to-be three year old boy. Man, he’s a handful. I held my wife at bay for as long as I could, thinking that one day I would feel mature enough. I still don’t.
He’s a pretty cool kid, though.
PS. I use the quick and dirty “Notepad” to respond until it’s ready to import. meh….wordpress.
bradley
August 11, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Bradley, I do appreciate your Socratic dialog. It was interesting to say the least. I would say that your justifications are all misguided and horribly inaccurate. Sorry. Can we still be friends?
Although you have attempted to generalize my statements and my thoughts for your purpose of illustration, I have never uttered such phrases or thoughts (in my opinion of course).
There is no absolute truth. If there were such a thing, don’t you think everyone would have already been aware of it and if that was the case wouldn’t we all be at peace knowing that that the all-powerful god has laid down the edict of 1 truth and that everyone on the planet is observing that truth? Your god needs to hire a better PR firm then.
You bring up equality. You even go as far as saying that we are equally valuable in your god’s eyes. Really? Have you seriously actually read the bible? I will assume you have not. Not really read it anyway. I will use the familiar Noah story; so much for equality in that story and the value of life from your god. I will assume that he waited for every pregnant woman to give birth before eliminating the human race almost entirely as this seems to conflict with the pro-life stance most christians have.
He spared 1 family? He eradicated practically the entire human race. Seems it would have been easier to just start over when he only had two people to deal with, right?
You clearly state: “The fact is, the people of the Scripture were dead-on with their understanding of Man.” Really? No revisions have ever taken place? None? These are god’s words? Really? The “book” has been picked over by so many over such a long time I am surprised it means anything at this point. Seriously. It’s not like a football play book where you can still run plays from 1932 in 2010.
People used Powerade in that movie from sheer stupidity and quite frankly ignorance and follow-the-pack mentality (sort of like religion).
I like how you refer to YOUR bible all the time. Did you pull a Jefferson and create your OWN bible? Did you remove all the ridiculousness and keep just what matters to YOU?
Sounds like the Christianity.
I really like how ALL christians “know” what non-christians “really mean” or what non-christians “really feel”. Where do you get your information? Is it divine?
For the record….
I am not angry.
I have not lost hope.
I love more NOW than when I was “another sheep in the flock” (Pink Floyd).
___________________________________________________________________
No kids for us. We’ve thought about getting a pet, but those seem to be a pain in the ass as well. We’ve considered tattoos, but again, painful and permanent.
A three-year old huh? Sounds like fun. I wonder what you’d do if he “turns” his back on YOUR beliefs…some day.
Mr. Atheist
August 15, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Just having a little fun, mate.
If we can’t take our time and have fun, we could miss the whole point.
I hear ya. Too bad he’s stuck with us humans.
Since you brought it up, I am pro-life. I don’t, personally, see how you can understand love at all and NOT be pro-life. There may be exceptions to any rule, and I KNOW we can all be crushed by life sometimes, and feel hopeless… but doesn’t abortion seem very NOT “life and love”?
Yes it has. Isn’t it weird that it still tells the same story? Love. Without Christ, it would have just been an open ended promise.
No… We’re just all in different stages in our relationship with God. I won’t tell you that I have any special hidden meaning. I’m just sharing my beliefs. One day I may sit here and argue with you that God really did destroy all of humanity with a flood because of their sin… That’s how the story goes… and I see myself changing all the time.
Is that why you don’t believe? Because God sends plagues, floods, and death? Does not believing in God make the suffering go away? If it’s “just part of life”, why keep blaming God for it? I mean… God kills things… it’s just part of life. Even Jesus knew not to throw himself off the temple. Although, I think the point is that if Jesus HAD thrown himself off the temple and died… it would have been God’s wrath against his sinful pride. Isn’t that cool? We understand gravity… and yet, the bible is still true. Truth maybe?
I said it was an assumption. I really was just talking about myself. That’s what I’ve come to realize about my life before God. I’ll drop it, though… you’re not angry. But, if you ever find yourself thinking you are, I’m right there with ya.
Apparently not.
Are you about to tell me what I believe and how wrong my understanding of God is? I thought you were an atheist. Please, tell me how inaccurate my understanding of God really is.
You have page after page of me telling you what I believe. My name is not Moses, John, Jesus, Paul, or that of any early church father. I’m just bradley… sharing what I’ve discovered about God. Surley you must have discovered something about life, too.
Exactly! And, Judaism before that. And, more oddly still, Islam after. How can we preach from the same Word and miss the point so much? If everything from the OT was actually factual, it’s a shame that it all had to happen to teach us Faith. But, it is because of the Faith taught in the OT that makes Jesus the Christ.
If it wasn’t for Him, we wouldn’t know forgiveness. Without the kind of faith in Christ that is taught in God’s Word, we are… [Romans 1:16-32, 2:1-11]
It seems a little weird, but because the church hasn’t had the faith that Christ is the only savior, the church has demonstrated the very evil God’s Word speaks against. From the very beginning the Bible has ALWAYS been about Faith in God, and the consequences without it.
It’s a sad thing that happens when people believe in gods other than the one and only Jesus Christ… especially Christians, because we do it in Christ’s name. Bah.
—————–
Whew… I can almost count on it, I think. I was quite the rebellious hellraiser myself. I’m sure he’ll be just as strong-willed. All I can do is try my best to teach him, right? It sure beats the alternative. Just look at America. I love it, but, damn… we’re pretty disgusting.
bradley
August 15, 2009 at 10:41 pm
At least we agree in having a little fun (even if your idea of fun send me straight to the burning hell-fire
). I am having a great time!
Well, since we are talking about it… I am pro-choice. You didn’t answer my question though. How can christians be pro-life when their own god killed pregnant women and children. That does not strike me a pro-life at all. Where is it that christians find their pro-life view in the bible? I would like your comments on THAT. You cannot give me the “exceptions because he’s god” argument because that is not an argument (I think you would agree).
Not getting “hung up” on the word Love, as you like to say, but what sort of love are you talking about? Didn’t jesus say he came with a sword?
This does not seem peaceful to me at all. This is your jesus talking here, right? It also seems to be in violation of one of the “truths” mentioned earlier in the good book about honoring thy father and thy mother… ( re-read your Romans 1:30)
Nature happens. Floods and plagues can be explained now. Floods and plagues were mysteries that bolstered the uninformed belief that the source of these events was purely divine. This goes further back in time; you can find this line of reasoning in Sumer and Ur. Just illustrates that there was no understanding of nature and weather. It is not punishment, it just is. It’s just weather. There is no “truth” in weather.
If your son asks you why it is raining will you tell him because god loves us and wants our vegetable and plants and trees to grow? What will you tell him when it stops raining? What will you say when there is a drought? Will you explain that god is pissed off at your neighbors because they are an unmarried couple with children and that that is against god’s rule or that the there is a gay couple across the street and god doesn’t like what they do in their bedroom…so he (god) is withholding love and instead is punishing those “around” the cause of his anger?
You said…
Assuming it was factual, why think it is now a metaphor, it seems more of the seeding of fear to bear the fruit of faith. You see that don’t you?
Mr. Atheist
August 16, 2009 at 9:17 am
I don’t really know how to avoid giving exception because he is God. I can’t really help what God does… only what I do. If there actually IS a way I can determine God’s actions… as in, his reactions are determined by my choices in life… or Man’s in general, rather. Then, it still boils down to my actions. Kind of like if we want a God that slaughters the heathens, then by all means, lets go crusading.
If we want a forgiving God that shows mercy on all of humanity… then, we really should spread the message of repentance, forgiveness, and love. He’s already forgiven us… he’s just waiting on our choice.
Regardless, your whole logic in thinking a Christian cannot arrive at opposition for state condonation of murder because we understand the realities of natural law is a bit weak, anyway.
Pregnant women and babies die all the time. Why does that mean we should want to kill them, too?
Everything else he ever said was quite contrary to that… including: his conversation with Peter after healing the cut off ear… and his conversation with Pilate about his kingdom not being of this world or his servants would fight for him.
The statement you’ve quoted does not seem at all to be a call to bloody revolt, rather an accurate prophecy of the realities of a life following him. Because the world did not know who he was, they did not receive Him… same goes for his followers, until the new church decided to take it upon themselves to “save the world” on their own. For some reason I have Rage Against the Machine, “Killing in the name of” going through my head.
Exactly. The whole theme is “passively” leading an effective life, allowing God to work in others through the spirit dwelling in us. It would be kind of like if Jesus called us all to be homosexuals. That wouldn’t necessarily be bringing peace to our household, would it? And it definitely isn’t like telling us to build an army to take over Texas, while waiving our rainbow flag.
Right, we can’t control the weather. We can only learn from it. What is wrong with learning from it? When my mom had her affliction, science explained it perfectly… but, through it she learned what it meant to be humble and some humility that has lasted a lifetime. Science explains it, sure… but God used it to teach my mom. What is so hard to understand about that? Without God, it’s just another disease, mr_a.
I thought you were all about learning…
That’s tough. My wife and I are on different sides of the aisle on this. I feel a little silly telling him stuff like that, even though, statistically, I know it would help build a strong base of faith that he can work through as he matures. It IS definitely on my mind, though, because I hope he can understand the joy of this faith while facing a world that is growing increasingly contrary.
I didn’t really mean it was a metaphor. There is a lot of metaphor in the bible, but I don’t really think the Torah is metaphor. I’m just not that informed on the archeological evidence of pre-Abraham and the Israelite campaigns. I don’t really have a reason to dismiss it… my faith just doesn’t require it to be historically accurate.
I can see just as much Truth in an oral history used to lay a foundation for nationalism. The rock on which everything is built, so to speak. The awesome thing is that this wasn’t just any old nationalism. This was nationalism built on faith and everytime man strayed away from that truth, the nation fell. Isn’t that awesome? It’s like how the US is now built on finance instead of the Rock. You mentioned Jefferson before… doesn’t it feel a tiny little bit like we’re kind of squandering our land of opportunity? Just a little bit?
Of course… if you want to take God out of it… then I’m sure there’s nothing to learn from the Bible or our new American habits.
bradley
August 17, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Bradley, Bradley…tsk, tsk, tsk…
I will give props for the ad hoc response you provide. You didn’t answer the question. You simply state…God can do whatever he wants because he is God and does not answer to anyone least of all us mortals. The same mortals that strive to be god-like in their actions… Not a god I would want to emulate considering the fact that he was not very “life friendly”. Damning the kids because of eating a forbidden fruit seems a tad extreme for such a trivial offense.
Abortion? God is PRO-ABORTION actually the way I see it. It is right there in black and white. To answer…he’s god and can do as he pleases… Not a valid argument. Sorry.
Moving on.
I am about learning, my good sir. It seems that the ultimate answer to any question is god. It’s like knowing the answer to every question is going to be “c”. Why would you need to “study” anything, learn new things, etc… It will always be “c” no matter how much you study or how much you learn, ultimately it is just god. Whatever god says and does is all that is needed to understand. Huh? Sorry, not a satisfactory answer at all. That seems to keep learning at bay or better said…it seems that the early fathers were more interested in surrounding and trying to destroy the tree of knowledge than to explore what man is actually capable of without having to just prostrate himself in front of the invisible being that watches everything and everyone and knows all.
“…growing increasingly contrary” to what? Christian belief? You are struggling with explaining drought because you just want to throw your hands up and just blame god for it; perpetuating the “mystery of nature” is controlled divinely? Man, come on….seriously?
Explain what you mean by the word Bible.
Mr. Atheist
August 19, 2009 at 10:02 pm
You’re kind of squabbling over semantics a bit. Your argument is not really addressing the fundamental elements of our conversation. They might be nice Atheist Pep-rally talking points, but let’s try and use some logic.
Why is this a debate when you clearly don’t hold God accountable either. Does nature need to answer to anyone? Do you hold the clouds accountable for the drought that occurs in arid regions? Do you blame the unborn baby for growing as a result of intercourse, a known baby-making activity.
I guess if you want to abandon thousands of years of scientific understanding about the way the world works, or waste the next thousand, we can just sit around and use the “God is a mofo so he doesn’t exist” argument. It doesn’t even make sense. Do you think if you disbelieve in God as the creator you won’t die? Should we hold bacteria accountable for eating your rotting corpse? It just IS. Am I naive?
Because without studying the answer, we have no idea what it is even the answer to. Knowing God is the answer is only the beginning. But, just out of curiosity… what are some of the questions that I simply use God as the answer? This debate may be better suited for your quiet time of atheistic reinforcement. I love how complex God made creation… and I love how intelligent he made us.
You’re barking up the wrong tree with the Tree of Knowledge… it’s the “tree of knowledge of right and wrong”. It reminds me of the atom bomb. That was a world changer, let me tell you. The discovery of nuclear energy has immeasurable positive benefit, but used unrighteously, we have one of the biggest destruction and threats to mankind. We can’t really put that horse back in the barn. We just have to be vigilant in ensuring the right path is chosen.
Uh, no. I’m struggling with revealing a truth that my son’s adolescent mind may not fully grasp. The reason I hesitate sharing that it is God’s love that causes or precludes rain for our vegetation is because his concept of permanence is not totally developed. If I tell him that God made it rain because he loves us, he could deduce that absence of rain means absence of love.
The reason I’m considering telling him this truth is because I know he’ll gain more logic and understanding as he matures. He’ll be able to handle that revelation when he can understand unconditional love. However, if you are still struggling with the idea of God’s love existing in the rain and drought, because you don’t understand God’s marriage to the truth… I really have a dilemma.
It’s a collection of writings on the subject of God, Man, and Man’s relationship with God. It is commentary written by men who have experienced God over the course of a thousand years, or so. These men were compelled by the spirit of God to reveal their understandings. I think many people have been compelled to prophesy, but have not been included in the “accepted” Holy Bible. These writings should be tested with the same scrutiny as those that ARE included. I definitely start with the Bible first, though… because those have already been tested for thousands of years, and there is something to be said for something that has withstood that much scrutiny.
I hope you can share in my happiness, even if you don’t have kids. I’ll tell you… the more I’m understanding love, the more capable I feel of loving more kids. And that’s really really weird coming from me.
———————
Honestly, though. You’re lack of the use of logic is going to hinder this discussion.
———————
On an extremely happy note. We just found out that we have another baby on the way!
And just between you, me, and teh innerwebz… I’m just as scared shitless about this second one, too.
bradley
August 20, 2009 at 8:53 pm
I can honestly say that “semantics” is exactly what I enjoy. I mean, isn’t semantics just the study of meaning? Can you have an argument without it?
Your analogy of clouds in arid regions being blamed for a drought is off the mark; arid regions usually have a small percentage of cloud cover, hence: drought. I will forgive you for that (you like that? I am forgiving?) You lost me on the baby growing thing.
Do you believe your own words when you say:
That seems to be a basis for the problem with a belief in god. If he gives it is good, if he does not give he is pissed. If a child is born with a physical abnormality is it because god is punishing you? If he is not punishing you, is he punishing your wife? Is he punishing the child itself?
You DO have a dilemma. Some child is born into poverty not by choice. Some other child is born into privilege not by choice either. Is the privileged child MORE loved than the poverty stricken child? The privileged child has access to the best education and the best religion. The poor child does not have access to the education, but may or may not have access to the religion that is best. The rich kids will eventually, some day, pray for those poor kids. The rich kids will be thankful to god for their access and are thankful that they were not born poor or underprivileged. They are thankful that god loved them enough to have them be born with means. This must then mean that god doesn’t love those poor children as much and those poor children needed to be taught a lesson… Sorry. I can’t believe that that is a TRUTH.
It seems that a TRUTH must be a something that is positive for ALL human beings regardless of their social standing or their means.
What scrutiny has the bible stood up to?
My lack of logic will hinder this discussion? Really? Your logical conclusion is a bearded man in the sky! Mine is not. How am I being illogical?
I am scared shitless for you too, my friend. Congratulations to you and Mrs. Bradley.
Mr. Atheist
August 20, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Greetings.
I’m not really looking for an argument. Some things cannot be answered yet. Some things you won’t accept as an answer. These “arguments” are being handled all over the web, way better than we’re doing.
If you really wanted to discover the answers to these “trivial” type questions, it’s quite easy. I’m enjoying are conversation quite a bit, but once again, it seems to be slipping into the scripted argument for why God doesn’t exist. I have no interest in God “not existing”. I kind of put that to rest a few years back. I DO have an interest in brainstorming some deeper truths, though… if you are.
No, that seems to be the problem with an immature understand of God and love… and a lack of faith.
The bible opens.
1)God said, “I love you.”
2)We try to learn what that means.
3)Jesus shows us what that means.
4)God said, “See I told you I loved you.”
5)We know what love is.
The bible closes.
It would appear so… because we’re just letting the poverty stricken child die of starvation. We are wicked people. Does that bother you?
google it
Here’s a pretty cool story for you. All day Thursday I was freaking out, for all the typical reasons. We WERE trying to have another one, but doubt still exists. Suddenly I started imagining every single bill that will be due between now and 2028. That kind of stuff… just typical cold-feet type fear.
After we had our son, we gave away a good bit of our things to help other young couples prepare for their kids, too. We were given things, so we passed along the favor. Anyway, my wife and I talked about me feeling overwhelmed. I mention my fears and even threw in, “Great… we’re even going to have to buy a breast pump.” (we borrowed one the first time from a friend that has gone a separate way)
In case you don’t know they are about $300. It’s not that bad, but added to everything else, it was just enough to give me reason to doubt. So, we prayed about my fears and asked God to ease them a bit and help us just to trust him to provide.
Friday morning I get a fantastic email from my wife telling me that the same breast pump girl dropped by her job, out of the blue, just to say hey. My wife proceeded to tell her that we were expecting… hug hug, squeal squeal. Then the girl says, “Are you planning on breast feeding again? I meant to get in touch with you a while back… I had my tubes tied after my last child… Do you want to have that breast pump?” And, it looks like that relationship is about to be mended in the process.
Boom… I love God.
bradley
August 23, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Google it. Now what fun is that? I am curious as to YOUR findings. YOUR scrutiny. Not the tubes’! Ha! Google it sounds just like…because god said so.
If the bible were only a 5 page book there wouldn’t be so many issues. The good book doesn’t start like that or end like that…not literally or even figuratively. You must send me the “link” to your bible.
That’s a cool story. It wasn’t god, it was just lousy timing. Sounded like she was sidetracked previously and was not able to reach out…I am sure it would have been a blessing had it happened earlier before your “fit”.
Just out of curiousity. What would have happened had you NOT prayed. Just curious.
I would love to “solve” all the issues. Is it possible?
Mr. Atheist
August 23, 2009 at 9:38 pm
We would have missed out on experiencing God.
bradley
August 24, 2009 at 6:55 am
Missed out on experiencing god? So you don’t have a panic attack (fully warranted) but no prayer. Your wife’s long lost friend walks in and offers her a breat pump. No prayer. It just happened. What divine inspiration took place for that woman to walk into your wife’s office? Why is your breast pump more important than the guy in the town over who can’t find a job and is about to lose is house and family…he prays to god for a job? He prays for the economy to turn around…he prays and prays… He’s a good, god-fearing man by the way. Where is god?
Mr. Atheist
August 25, 2009 at 9:01 pm
I’m not saying there was divine inspiration that led “b-p girl” to go see my wife. Maybe there was… I can only speak from my perspective of God answering our prayer. We see it as an answered prayer because we prayed and God provided. Had we prayed and there was no BP Girl, his provision would have taken another form, and be just as satisfying.
The man in the next town over that is fervently praying for a job, the economy, world peace, or whatever, will have a similar experience if he is genuinely seeking God’s will for his life. God may not provide a job right away, but the man’s willingness to seek after what God DOES provide is a reflection of a man primed for gaining spiritual wisdom.
That’s part of the beauty of a relationship with God, mr_a. It’s not about having a pocket Divine ATM that spits out gifts when you enter the right code. If that’s all God is, I would definitely be an atheist, too. Instead, God is more like a father that is teaching his kids how to be more like him.
Now, I’m sure you’re thinking, “Well, that’s just what losers say to explain away why God didn’t answer a prayer.” At least that’s what I thought when I was where you are. I didn’t understand God or faith. My belief, or disbelief rather, hinged on the need for tangible evidence of his existence. My prayers needed to be answered with an actual object for him to exist… but, what would be God’s point in that? How would that even work? Who would be God’s people? Who’s prayers would trump other’s if there was a conflict of interest? Who’s prayer would get answered in battle if both sides prayed to the same god?… the most devout? No, we all fall waaaay short, mr_a.
The only people that get their prayers answered are the ones that ask God to answer them. And, the only answers to the prayers are what we do with them when He answers. God’s will for our life is to be like him. He is the image we are to strive for in our development. If we pray for this, every answer will be geared toward molding us into that image.
If a prayer or two get answered with a tangible provision, it is merely for the buttressing of our own faith, and the faith of all we tell. It is the bridge that carries us until the next event acts as a catalyst for gaining spiritual wisdom. Striving to be like God is a lot harder than remaining like apes… sometimes we need a pick-me-up… like finding the wire-cutters or a breast pump.
I’ll tell you what God is working on in my life… sort of like the 3 pillars of my destruction. (wait, that’s kind of an oxymoron) The 3 wrecking balls of my Christ-likeness. (no, that’s a bit awkward and there are way more than 3) The 3 pillars of my fortification of self. (eh, getting closer)
3 things I’m struggling with
pride, lust, and greed
bradley
August 26, 2009 at 4:42 am
Greed, Lust, and Pride.
How are these things bad when practiced in moderation?
Mr. Atheist
August 30, 2009 at 9:16 am
Howdy Howdy. I hope all is going well with you.
*** My goal for the day: Remember to use “whose” instead of “who’s”. Thanks for not being a grammar-nazi
*** My hope for tomorrow: To not take such a beating in the market. What a brutal couple of days. I suppose the raping was due, though…
—————————————-
Well, I guess that depends on how close to God we want to be. How much do we want to experience the full, true nature of love?
It seems like we construct our understanding of love from our environment. Our conditioning would depend on the condition of that environment. I don’t know if you do any stock trading, but our understanding of love would be like any moving average that rises and falls based on the whims of society. Our comprehension of love can only be as good as the most loving environment we create. And, just as relevant, even if our love is trading at the high end of a horribly unloving environment, it’s still low by eternal standards… even when appearing adequate by our finite standards.
I think the way to transcend our finite measure of our love is to judge it by the absolute definition… God. Though our understanding of God-Love has changed over time (chicken or the egg… I don’t know… there’s definitely a synergy there), the real impact can be felt in society and individually.
But, the short answer is:
All of those things get in the way of our relationships. The amount of damage that is suitable for you to inflict, or receive, would determine how diligently you try to be free from their grip. It’s probably an “ignorance is bliss” kind of thing, though. If you don’t know what love you’re missing out on, then there is no real need to change. We can always come up with excuses to explain the damage they all cause, both to ourselves and others.
What do you think about seeing the 3 separate qualities?… pride, lust, and greed. I mention them separately, but I believe the doctrine says that greed and lust(among others) are both rooted in pride… sort of a Pride Most High. This takes us back to the very beginning of our conversation in your other post. How does satan finally get put to rest?
bradley
September 1, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Me, grammar-nazi? Please. English is my second language.
How does Satan get put to rest? Very easily.
He doesn’t exist. There. Poof! Be gone.
Mr. Atheist
September 2, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Wow, that’s deep man.
bradley
September 4, 2009 at 8:23 am
Just doing my job, man. Just doing my job.
Mr. Atheist
September 5, 2009 at 11:03 pm
Hey buddy.
Just checking in on you. Hope things are still going well for you.
bradley
September 19, 2009 at 4:59 pm